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 A few questions and suggestions to the DMs and Builders

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derpyderp
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PostSubject: A few questions and suggestions to the DMs and Builders   Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:14 am

Alright, let me start it off by saying that I love the setting and the genre in general, but that's not what I'm here to talk about.

The problem in question is powerbuilding and the NWN classes that allow it, but clash with what the setting should allow.

Lets take Red Dragon Disciple: There are no dragons in this setting, unless a Tsimice decided to craft one out of flesh, but it's still be a huge dragon-shaped hunk of flesh. Dragon Disciples are the descendants of descendants of dragons, that's where they get their power and neat abilities from, but as dragons don't exist, this class should not exist either. If the DMs can give me an explanation on just how you can describe this class in RP terms, I'd be grateful.

Moving on to Harper Scout: A class closely connected to the Harper organisation of Forgotten Realms and the various goodly deities they serve. Those deities don't exist, and neither do the Harpers, Moonstars or any such organisation, making the class another plot-hole.

Next up is Shadowdancer: Hide in Plain Sight is one of the easiest feats to use to overpower people in PVP because...well, you can blink in an out of combat seamlessly and deal massive amounts of damage without breaking a sweat. I'm not saying this class should be removed, but on top of it's usual requirements, why not place the requirement of Obfuscation discipline for vampires, raise the requirements for other races.

Next is Monk: Monk by it's very definition is someone who devotes his LIFE to asceticism and abstinence from many of the leisures of life. They train to put aside their emotions and rely on reason, something that Garou and vampires should not do, as they are guided by their animalistic nature and hunger respectively. Monks among these races should be extremely rare, or even nonexistant as far as vampires go.

Assassin: It has spell-like abilities, which most vampire hunters simply don't have, as something to emulate them, nor are there disciplines for most of them, or maybe there are and they basically do the same thing. And the class is mostly pointless for vampires because they're already immune to poison. Whenever haks can be implemented into the server, which I know they cannot be at present, this class should get an update.

Weapon Master: We all know that Weapon Master rocks and it's the basis for your typical powerbuild. In the server's last installment there was a Garou character that was a Monk/Fighter/Weapon Master on Kama. Now, let me list the things that make that bit of silliness not really plausible. Firstly, he's a garou who wore tuxedoes...yeah...secondly, he was a monk, monks don't wear tuxedoes and he was a garou, which also nullifies the monk bit. And he used two Kama. The Kama is a weapon derived from a farmer's tool and is used in Asia. Unless the guy went all the way to Asia to find someone who can teach him to use a farmer's tool as a weapon, he shouldn't be able to devastate foes with it. The Monk/Fighter/Weaponmaster build on Kama is a typical sight on most Arena servers or servers with a high level range and liberal attitude toward building, this sort of thing should be disallowed because it not only makes plot-holes, it's just silly and meant to ruin the chances of the opposition.

Arcane Archer: This is a class that is again, not really plausible in this setting, because elves do not exist and in Forgotten Realms and other settings where this class exists, Elves are the ones who learned to channel magic instantly into arrows and send them flying etc...as there are no elves here, there is no one who can take this class, as it is deeply intertwined with elven tradition in the lore. But if it is allowed, only a few should be able to take it.

Dwarven Defender: No dwarves, no dwarven tradition, no dwarven lifestyle, dwarven defenders are completely impossible to implement , because dwarves here do not exist. A dwarf in this setting would be a human with a genetic defect on his growth hormone.

Classes or Prestige Classes in general: Classes aren't just what make your character's stats and skills, it's a choice of lifestyle. Prestige Classes are the epitome of a goal, something a character must strive for to achieve, perfection in their art of warfare or otherwise that sets them above the rest. While some classes give leeway to act them out in role play in many different directions, others are tied into a core that they must follow. I shall follow through with examples:

Rogue: A rogue can be anything from a thief, to a thug or a diplomat. They can be charming, gruff, commanding or simply the kind that keep to the shadows and avoid contact. This class can be explained in many different ways.

Ranger: A good ranger is someone who is wise in the ways of nature, who aids travelers who become lost in the wilderness and protects it when it is threatened. The ranger can also be a bounty hunter, someone who has taken his favored enemies to be humans, trained and often hired to track them down and slay them. Alternatively, the ranger can be a hunter of the supernatural, if he focuses on slaying vampires or garou, he could be one very effective Hunter.

Bard: Be it a minstrel or an actor, or a painter the bard is much like the rogue, he can be played in many different ways, but he is always focused on a form of art.

Now, for classes that are less liberal.

Monk: The monk is an ascetic, someone who devotes his life to unraveling the mysteries of life, separating himself from the rest of civilisation to train his body and mind to achieve the perfect balance. This pursuit is personal and it is not meant to be altruistic or egotistic, in the end, all monks reach the neutral alignment, unless they give up that path before they achieve clarity. It's not just a class that lets you fight bare-handed or dual-wield kama, it's a way of life. And taking into consideration that for the year and place where the server is set, monks were not fighting people, they were scribes, nothing more. Monks of the east, were the ones the Monk class was modeled after and in a setting that is a different, dark-fantasy version of what was once the real world, that means that characters would have to learn from actual eastern monks...who in turn, never came to Europe.

Red Dragon Disciple: Red Dragon Disciples as described are the descendants of descendants of dragons. There is dragon blood in their veins that's been passed down and dilluted through generations, but due to the power of the draconic race, such a descendant exhibits a natural affinity for magic, which bards and sorcerers have, as they don't learn their spells, they're born with them, but must summon the will and power to cast them. As an added perk, an individual who has a dragon somewhere in his family tree can show traits of draconic nature, and if they spent time learning draconic lore, they could tap into the draconic blood within them and bring it to life, growing scales, breathing fire and growing wings, sentiently changing their physiology. That's all in DnD.

Here...well...dragons don't exist. How one can explain having wings, breathing fire, having scaly skin and inhuman muscle strength...?

This is more related to race selections, but I'll add it anyway.

Race: I know people sometimes want to play a lean character, or a bulky character, muscular, stout, ugly, dashing, young or old...but there are descriptions for that. Not everything one sees in the game is WYSIWYG A.K.A. "What You See Is What You Get". For example, people don't see floating eyes over the Gangrel's head when he uses his first rank Protean discipline, his actual eyes change their shape and allow him to see better in the dark and give him an unnerving appearance. You don't have to pick the scrawny elf race for your character to be actually lean and agile. You don't have to pick the Half-Orc racial type for your character to be some huge mass of muscle with tiny legs. And Half-Elves look like Humans in the NWN engine, so I don't see the point in even implementing them here.


Right now, this is all I have to say. Lastly, I will ask the DMs to give me their opinion on what I've said above, and their explanations on the classes that I've pointed out are setting and lore-specific.

Thanks a bunch, Derpyderp




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PostSubject: Re: A few questions and suggestions to the DMs and Builders   Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:40 pm

Well! I'm no DM, nor am I an expert on things NWN, let alone of my own household, but I can add a few cents to the bidding table!

All of your exclamations on here are completly legit; but, seeing as, to my knowledge (which is poor anyway), we are not having hack or getting them for QUITE some time, all of this is nill. NWN SYSTEM(s) problems has always been like this in most often 'unique' servers out there, because there really is not 'perfect fit' for any setting unless that server have been throughly developed and has been running for some time (Which I believe we have neither as we are in a BETA).

Plus, I don't believe we are a "ONLY RP'ers ARE ALLOWED, NO GRINDING OR LEVELING FOR MORE POWER" server. I think we are trying to balence between them, but people can choose what they would like to do.

Now, with the classes obviously not fitting this setting, I think it needs to be clarified what each class IS in this setting, because, as shown above, a Monk really the 'ascetic' type in this game. I think once we do that, all will be well!

And about the races...I personally like to have a somewhat close resembelance to what my character looks like, even if I have to use a different race. I always use a description, but for those who don't have the best imagination, are new to RPing, or are just too tired to picture something so elaborate, I think it's easier to look at a 3d model;the main reason I think we are even using NWN. Otherwise, we are basically running a PnP game, which I don't think was teh intention.

*deposits a quarter*
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derpyderp
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions and suggestions to the DMs and Builders   Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:56 pm

You put up some very good points there, I must admit. I may come across as very critical, but this is all intended to get the gears cranking for some artistic thinking. Heck, the players could easily forward their ideas as to how to explain the classes that simply don't have a definition in the setting. I do realise that this doesn't have to be strictly set to the lore of the setting.

And nothing is stopping people from making powerful characters, but the point of a server like this is to make a fun character to interact with, not just about how wolves hunt vampires , how vampires hunt humans and how certain humans hunt wolves and vampires both. So, if you make a powerful character, then at least you should remember that olde saying "that with power comes responsibility" and dispense your character's power responsibly...not just wave it in our faces or bash our skulls in with it.

Mah 2 pence.
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions and suggestions to the DMs and Builders   Sat Dec 03, 2011 9:42 pm

OK here is the reasoning I can give.

Races: I set up races to function in different age groups or body builds. I am a visual person and as such I perfer to see a red haired HUGE man instead of a Red Haired small person Just how i work. This would mean that some classes would be stated as to be of small stature, or of lean stature.

Arcane Archer- There are groups which can do what A.A.s can do in nwn. These are Mainly a group of sorcerers, and four spirit possessed groups known as Fomori, Drones, Kami, and Gorgons. They can all do things which break some form of reality.

Red Dragon Disciple- There are creatures in WOD which are like dragons they are called Zimi. They are Ancient beasts whom are evil, they are extremely hard to kill and even worse to deal with. Fomori also can gain powers like that of the RDD. This is why the class is listed as limited it is even scripted limited. No one gets to take the class with out my own approval.

Monks- In WOD there is a whole garou tribe which are extremely monk like. There are also more than one type of monk. Monks follow the laws in my world. As such they are mediators, and judges. This classs has been allowed also to represent training in hand to hand combat has it does take some speciality.

Shadow Dancer- Not really that big of a problem. I have gifts in that beef up spot, and listen so this makes taking shadow dancer not always awesome as it seems.

Assassin has a limit of evil on it so we are not going to see it other than in the realm of humans and vampires.

Weapon Master- again no problems with people working towards perfecting the art of their favored weapon.


For everything else I have a lot of scripted limits in and a lot of rules limits in to limit power builder some. But to be honest no rule will stop it all.

Hope that answers some of your questions.
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derpyderp
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions and suggestions to the DMs and Builders   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:35 pm

I got to reading a bit on the glorious mass of information that is the internet. I found out that apparently, elder vampires of 7th generation or bellow can actually...go past the 5th level of a discipline, developing something with even more "umpf" behind it.

So, I'm wondering if this will be implemented here, at least in NPCs with the option of player characters being taught the dreaded 6th level of a discipline if their actions please this venerable elder.

On another note entirely, do Garou have an equivalent to this?
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions and suggestions to the DMs and Builders   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:41 pm

I'll keep on spamming out my questions!


So, as a rather big fan of World of Darkness, albeit unable to partake in a PnP game of it, I've played through every instance of a game that's emerged out there and sadly I know of only two in total. So, I'm also wondering if, in due time when all the systems are working, the server gets out of it's beta etc. will we see any of the iconic characters? Off the top of my head, there are many that could at least be mentioned, or even made into plot-hooks and even made the central figure of a plot, such as Hardestadt, Tyler, our favorite crusader Christof Romuald and his crew of misfits or how about Smiling Jack the Anarch?
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PostSubject: Re: A few questions and suggestions to the DMs and Builders   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:47 pm

I'm starting to feel sorry about chaining up questions like this...but I'ma do it anyway.


In the thread about Vampire Information, under the Cappadocian it says that they were more or less made extinct in the mid 15th century and that a player would have to apply in order to make a Cappadocian

This raises a question of whether or not the setting is supposedly in the 14th or 15th century. In the NWN vault, it says that the setting is in the mid 15th century, but still before the date where the Cappadocians were assimilated by the Giovanni. On the forum I've seen it written that it's the late 14th century. Wondering which one of the two is accurate, or if a jump in the timeline will be made once the server gets out of beta?
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PostSubject: Generations and Ranks.   Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:51 pm

Yes Derpy there are vampires that are even tougher then elders, they are called Methuselah often ranging from 800-2000 years old, Some are even older beings called Ancients, and those before them called the Antediluvian.

Amongst Garou, beyond the rank of Elder (Rank 5) is a nearly impossible to attain rank called Grand Elder. (Rank 6) These are people like The Margrave, Gall-Gall-Fangs-First, and very few others created by Whitewolf in their Apocolypse setting. These are extremely rare cases, and require so much work it would be almost unheard of to see them on the Island.

People lower then 8th generation and people of Rank 5 and higher are primarily NPCs. 7th generation vampires don't just stroll into towns and shop at stores, they are so old and so powerful that they must remain hidden in the backgrounds working their influence and power bases so that their enemies do not find them vulnerable. The power of the Methuselah and the Grand Elders is legendary, so don't expect to see people wipping out things like Paws the Newborn Cub(Rank 6 Silverfang gift), or Love/Rage (Lvl 6 Presense) regularly. (if you don't know what these two powers do, look them up and you will understand why they require more then simply clicking on a widget to use.)

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